Securing Inclusion: Neurodiversity’s Impact in Cybersecurity
Mark your calendars! This Saturday, February 8th, 2025, at 11:00 AM EST, I’m sitting down with a powerhouse in both the cybersecurity and neurodiversity worlds: Nathan Chung!
Nathan is a trailblazer in his own right. Recently ranked #4 among LinkedIn’s Top 50 Neurodivergent Creators, he’s a multi-award-winning advocate, event organizer, and the brilliant mind behind The NeuroSec Podcast.
Nathan's journey is nothing short of inspirational as he shares his story and how he transformed challenges into a mission by raising awareness, breaking barriers, and creating a more inclusive cybersecurity industry.
He will share his wisdom on how companies can foster true inclusion and leverage the power of neurodivergence in cybersecurity and related fields. And hey, as a fellow Top 50 Neurodivergent Creator AND a fellow Texan, this conversation is one not to miss.
👉🏼 A massive “Thank You” to our sponsor, Check Point Software, for supporting this episode!
📌 Set your reminder, invite a friend, and join us LIVE!
Let’s redefine what’s possible, together. Will you join us?
Raqi 💙💋
Brilliant Beam Media
#neurodiversity #cybersecurity #TheInfluencersConnectionCorner #DEI #CheckpointSoftware #event #livestream #podcast #creators #linkedinTranscript
Transcript
Howdyhoo!
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:Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the influencers connection corner.
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:Happy Saturday!
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:my gosh.
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:wait, wait,
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:We had to get it worked up girl.
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:We had to get it worked up.
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:It's such a phenomenal seller day.
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:I love it guys.
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:Let us know where you're pulling up from and you know, I just love giving shout outs to
different folks, especially just the significance of this program today, the topic that
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:we're talking about.
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:I feel like it is now more than ever that we need to be talking about just being
different.
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:What does it mean being different?
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:Right?
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:Sia, you're not different.
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:You're not different at all.
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:Okay.
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:I know you're trying to be nice and sarcasm.
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:Let me tell you, sometimes people don't catch sarcasm, young lady.
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:Everyone, she's being sarcastic.
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:Just saying.
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:Just saying.
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:Sia is definitely unconventional in her way, should I say.
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:But it keeps life very interesting because honestly, I honestly think the world wasn't
built for us differently.
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:I think the world...
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:I think that's a misnomer.
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:I think the world is different and the variety is what makes it awesome.
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:So if you consider yourself normal, I think maybe you're the outlier.
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:Ooh, but okay.
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:So, but the dust, that doesn't mean that we don't belong, right?
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:That means there's just right.
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:Everyone belongs.
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:It's just finding that, that niche.
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:I honestly find that true innovation, you know, progress and change really happens in
those pockets of different.
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:different able, different thoughts.
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:But we need to stop forcing people to fit those molds that we're so, you know, templaty.
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:Come on, think, reshape, rebuild, fit molds to fit people, not the other way around.
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:What do you think?
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:I think create the mold, buck the mold, recreate the mold.
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:I think here's the thing.
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:I think what's interesting about this conversation that we're going to have is the fact
that
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:I think the acknowledgement that, you know, we truly are unique.
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:The human brain to me is one of the most fascinating like organs out there.
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:Outside of skin.
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:I'm still trying to figure out the skin, but the brain though, oh my gosh, the complexity,
the ability for us to calculate what we can calculate in an instant to, to, to feel
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:emotion, to feel anything, to, to process data, perceive that data, not just perceive the
data as
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:Binary zeros and ones but also to actually extrapolate wisdom and and add that to it So
it's there's just so much going on with our brains.
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:And so I don't think we should be shocked that there is Neuro diverse brains how we how we
you know calculate things how we perceive things etc so this is gonna be a great
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:conversation and and You know coming from the technology side of the house people's let me
just tell you I
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:I'm a firm believer that our creative brains has the ability to create magic in different
ways.
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:Sometimes it's reflected in art in that traditional sense, but I also think of like
programming as art.
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:Ooh, that is definitely an art that is not for everyone.
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:And you know, everyone doesn't execute it brilliantly as individuals who are.
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:neurodiverse do and that this is where I you know, I take my daughter's example, for
example, she's brilliant when it comes to math, she loves numbers and I know she you know,
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:she loves coding.
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:I for the life of me couldn't math when I was in school.
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:However, I loved science.
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:Science is my big thing, biology, anatomy is you know, all those things that didn't really
involve many numbers.
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:I was so good at those.
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:They spoke to my
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:core being of my heart.
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:So everyone, we all have our different abilities and different talents that make us
special.
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:That doesn't make us different.
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:It's just we're brilliant and shine in different shades of different lights.
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:inclusion is real, y'all.
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:Everyone wins.
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:So this is what we're talking about today.
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:And I cannot wait, wait to dive into this topic with our amazing guest of the day.
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:how about, what do you think we should do, madam?
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:Shall we spin our intro beautiful?
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:Because it's time to let's dance and dance.
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:Welcome to the Influencers Connection Corner.
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:And dance and dance.
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:Hey, hey, hey, hey, we start the party early.
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:It doesn't matter if it's 10 o'clock in the morning or 10 PM.
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:Mama's got her sequence on.
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:We're dancing today.
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:I girl, why are you so glittery?
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:Are you just giving us a little preview of what we're going to see in Vegas?
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:And all those guys think we're going to Vegas.
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:We're going to Vegas and you guys can all join us.
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:What does that mean?
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:We're saying
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:We're going to Checkpoint CPX America 2025 at the Venetian Resort Las Vegas.
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:Oh my gosh.
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:Yeah.
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:You had a little too much fun in that cup of yours this morning.
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:Didn't you?
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:You got coffee in there.
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:Are you sure?
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:Little Irish coffee this morning, my friend.
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:Oh my God.
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:Why you calling me out?
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:Come on girl in Vegas.
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:Cheers.
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:Every hour is good hour for.
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:See you coffee.
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:That is true.
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:It is fun in a cup guys, but as see I mentioned in my goodness guys, we're super excited.
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:We will be attending Checkpoint Software CPX Americas 2025 in Donde where Las Vegas,
Nevada guys, and this is going to be taking place February 25th to the 26th.
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:So join us.
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:It is going to be a blast.
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:Not only, you know, because we're going to be there and we're going to bring the party,
but not not.
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:not that type of party, you know what I mean.
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:But we will be bringing you the insights and all the updates and everything that is going
on behind the scenes.
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:One of my special, you know, one of the special reasons why I'm going to be there and I'm
executives from CPX Americas:
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:and Espanol.
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:So I look forward to meeting you all, speaking to all my Latin friends, Latin America.
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:Shout out to
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:all the countries and everyone who's traveling.
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:I've already started connecting with folks from there.
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:So I'm super excited for this opportunity.
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:Checkpoint.
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:Thank you so much.
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:Love it.
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:it.
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:Ooh, okay.
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:Because kids, are live.
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:So would you mind recording that en español?
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:Absolutely not.
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:know, people love when I speak Spanish.
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:I'm just kidding.
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:All right.
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:Let's go guys.
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:I told me some egos yet all the personas que están bien o sintonizando se desde los países
latinoamericanos.
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:Liz, I want to be that's your own accordion invitation.
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:I like conference.
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:Yeah, this T.
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:X.
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:America's does mean being to sink all the checkpoints software is that almost for a yeah,
if ever really think we need to say in Las Vegas, Nevada, angle, Venetian resort.
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:I see get los invitamos cordialmente.
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:It's that almost for a yeah.
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:Yes, but almost can let's go stay.
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:No, most.
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:She just you just love when I speak Spanish.
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:You just say that.
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:Yes, I love it guys.
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:But yes, checkpoint.
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:Thank you so much.
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:Gracias.
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:Okay, so everyone, if you are curious, I will add the comments below.
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:Please.
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:We'd love to have you join us for those that can make it obviously for those that are into
technology, cybersecurity.
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:This is for you.
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:CPX America's is really gonna be a great event.
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:So speaking of technology and cybersecurity,
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:I think without further ado, shall we, shall we, my dear?
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:Oh my goodness.
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:Yes.
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:Well, before we bring them on, let's just talk about the greatness of who Nathan is.
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:Well, he is a living proof of really what being different is redefined being strength.
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:You know, it's not a setback.
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:He was recently ranked number four among the top 50 creators on LinkedIn.
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:Let's make sure by Fabicon.
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:If you guys don't know that.
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:And this is specifically on neurodivergence.
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:So he turned his journey from maybe a message to a mission.
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:And this is including advocating for inclusion, breaking barriers and showing how
neurodivergent minds don't just fit in cybersecurity, they are actually excelling in it.
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:So let's give a warm welcome to our guest of the day, Nathan Chung.
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:Welcome, my friend.
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:That was a little loud, sorry kids.
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:Yeah, we tend to be loud around here, but Nathan, thank you so much.
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:You fit right in into everything that is going on today.
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:How are you, my friend?
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:I'm great and it's pleasure to be here today.
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:Thank you for having me on your show.
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:Thank you for making the time to be here.
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:I know Saturday mornings can tend to be a little bit busy for family, but this is also
very important because this is close to your heart.
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:You know, it's a topic that you and I have discussed and obviously,
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:your stellar career and accolades show your dedication to it.
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:So tell us a little bit about Nathan and then we get right into the conversation.
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:Sure.
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:So my name is Nathan Chung.
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:My pronouns are he him.
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:I am a Chinese American originally from Hawaii and now I'm living in Texas.
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:I am very open.
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:I have autism, ADHD, complex PTSD, and this one is alexis dimia.
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:I also work in cybersecurity.
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:That's me in a nutshell.
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:And you know, thank you for that.
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:And how important is to be able to set that difference, right?
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:Just because individuals, when we meet one for the first time, they like to immediately
label us.
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:But you know, as Latinas and Asian, and I've had this conversation with Sia plenty of
times, we really don't.
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:lead with those things.
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:really don't talk about those things as a culture.
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:know, mental illnesses, mental health is not discussed in our families.
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:So how has that, you know, led in your life?
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:How is that received?
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:Yeah, it's a long topic.
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:So in no diversity as a whole, the stereotype of being no diverse in person is usually
again, it's usually a white male virtually.
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:if you don't fall in that box, well, law doctors even today think, hey, you
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:If you're not a cis white male, you cannot be neurodivergent with these conditions.
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:I even wrote about this in a women's security magazine that was published in Australia.
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:Because the reality is even today, despite of a negative stigma around these conditions
like autism and ADHD, even today when a lot of women go to the doctor and say, I think I
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:have like autism, they still get told by doctors, wait, you're a woman, you're not a man.
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:cannot, it's impossible for you to have these conditions.
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:And that is upsetting to me when I hear these stories from my friends from all over the
world.
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:It's very upsetting.
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:Add to it the the other layers, the impact of culture, family, and where you live, the
country you live in.
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:Like me, as an Asian, it's, there are a lot of invisible walls.
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:I think concepts such as saving face, honor, avoiding shame.
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:In short, means don't make family look bad.
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:it puts people in a mindset where I better not say these things, I better not bring it up
and they don't get help.
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:Driving it of course is thousands of years of confusion dot and filial piety.
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:says make family look good, to cure family.
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:And also this concept called Asian guilt.
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:I saw this really
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:Besides lot of this Netflix movie called Beef, where it's these two agents, get to this
huge fight and road rage.
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:And over the course of the series, as it progresses, it goes, dies, it peels away the
layer.
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:And you see a lot of the stuff driving it is Asian guilt, the way they grew up in a very
bad home.
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:So in result for a lot of agents, such as myself, with all these, how you say, invisible
walls is,
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:tend to suffer in silence.
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:We often cannot get help.
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:cannot, because we mentally think we cannot have these conditions because it'll make my
family look bad.
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:So we don't get help.
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:And a lot of people sadly are not along with us.
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:Yeah.
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:I know you wanted to say, I know you wanted to say something.
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:Cause, cause the more I'm learning about the spectrum itself, right?
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:Because I think there is this like misconception, right?
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:And of, of it being one thing.
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:Right?
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:Because the spectrum has such different, again, you know, for lack of a better, colors,
right?
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:Different colors along of where the brain and how the brain functions.
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:Can I just tell you, you nailed something that just, I just literally heard on, and I'm
going to give Oswin Latimer a shout out with Foundations for Divergent Minds, because I am
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:producing Herding Cats, their new show.
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:But they had explicitly talked about how autism is considered a white, cis male, like,
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:Diagnosis and these ladies that are on our minority women who?
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:women From a diagnosis perspective is even following behind women don't get acknowledged
and so For you to say that is just mind-blowing to me because I never thought of it before
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:When you aren't in this world, you don't think about the fact that there is a challenge in
though even the
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:This sounds like a Sia rant.
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:I swear I'll be quick on here, Raquel.
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:But it is interesting that even in the scientific, you know, community, they still can't
seem to agree necessarily.
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:And that just blows my freaking mind, literally.
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:I mean, Nathan, so let me ask you, like, so with all the work that you're doing, are you
are you gaining momentum?
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:Do you think it's evolving?
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:Or do you still feel that there's an uphill climb to get even the scientific community on
board?
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:long question.
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:think I, me and a lot of people in university movement, we've been, we have been gaining
traction for the past few years up until a few weeks ago.
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:But, uh, I digress.
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:High level is it, like you said earlier in the show, the world is not made for us.
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:One really good show that really opened my eyes is CripCat.
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:Like despite all the advocacy work I do, it reminds us about all the disability advocates
that have come before.
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:And
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:Sadly, when you look at how things are today, not much has changed.
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:are some small gains, but things like buildings not being accessible, not having
elevators, not even having wheelchair ramps.
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:The world is still very inaccessible.
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:And since you all are in a tech space, consider this, I did a poll on LinkedIn.
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:I asked people, do people feel like their disability needs are met when they go to a tech
or cybersecurity conference?
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:Almost all, of course, most of the males said, yes, no problem.
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:The vast majority of those who said no were women.
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:Now consider that.
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:Women with disabilities are effectively, or more or less shut out and don't even bother
going to the conferences.
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:Consider that.
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:Wow.
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:No, I think it really brings into perspective that there are so many gaps still and so
many cracks, I would say, that we fall through.
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:and, and it adds, continues adding to that silence that is persistent and just perpetual.
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:it's a silent battle, you know, I have not been officially diagnosed, but I know at some
point, you know, I'm going to go through the entire thing because I know everybody has
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:something of something that that's what I can tell you, Sia and go ahead, Sia.
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:it's just cause they, but you're without going to detail, have a progeny though that has
been diagnosed.
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:I do.
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:I do actually, my oldest one is.
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:And it's one of those things that I'm learning as I go on this journey with her and being
able to equip myself with the right tools, with the information in order to be able to
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:give her more opportunities or equal opportunities to normal human beings, whatever you
define as normal being.
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:But it is important, especially for her as a girl.
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:Right?
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:And what am I doing as a woman to be able to lead and contribute to making that change for
her and for all the little girls that are coming up in future generations?
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:So that's very important.
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:As women, we must unite ladies.
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:We have to because this is this is we know we're being left behind in this regard.
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:Research is not supporting us.
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:And then when we show up, when we go to the health care system, they're not also
supporting us.
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:They're misdiagnosing or just shushing us away.
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:And I've seen and I've heard this of so many things and so many aspects.
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:So this is very important.
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:I just wanted to give a shout out to everyone who's showing up.
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:You know, so many individuals, especially on on LinkedIn, you know, this platform, this is
where we are and we live in here.
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:But, you know, they are open about it.
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:They start opening conversations about this because it's very important.
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:It affects us one way or another.
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:How often do you see or do you have people that come and talk to you, Nathan, or they just
open up?
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:You'd be surprised.
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:I it's not just me.
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:think when you see celebrities like Dan Aykroyd and Cameron D'Alie from Friends, Cameron
D'Alie.
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:When you see actors and celebrities coming out, even Bill Gates about a week ago, he said
that today you would probably be considered autistic.
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:I think that opens the door for people to say, it's okay to be open about being no
diversion.
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:on the flip side for the employers, when you go to work, the negative stigma of being
different and having these conditions, it still impacts.
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:Like I've heard so many stories, like when people tell their employers, it's recently like
even a day or so ago, a lady told me that when she came out to her employer that they are
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:neurodivergent, that's when the bullying started, that's when they started getting solely
pushed out the door and being put on the pimp and trying to fire her all because.
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:she was open about being no diversion at her workplace.
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:It's sad.
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:Yeah, and you know, when you're vulnerable, And this you really you would expect that
humanity will have your back and be like, OK, you're sharing this information with us in
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:order for us to have a supportive environment.
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:on the flip side, that doesn't happen.
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:It's like they turn their back on you.
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:And then what do you do?
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:So this is
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:But these are the stories that we need to start hearing in order to be able to change that
workplace culture.
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:And I know Felipe is in the comments.
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:Covino, thank you so much for being here.
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:It's a huge advocate, huge advocate for being inclusive, bringing that culture of
sensitivities into work, the different sensitivities into the workplace to be embraceable,
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:right?
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:Embrace diversity, embrace everything that it's.
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:condition to the healthy individual in the workplace.
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:So yes, yeah, go ahead.
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:I'm sorry.
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:You were going to say something.
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:Can I just ask one really fundamentally rudimentary question?
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:Though I can tell that our people that are chatting right now and I can see you all and
I'm trying to share the ones that are commenting.
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:Can you tell me what is autism?
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:Because I think people have this assumption that, you're autistic.
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:So therefore are you somehow mentally disabled?
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:Does that make sense?
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:So could you help me kind of just
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:high level view of defining that.
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:we're on the same plane.
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:Even that, even that's controversial in the community, high level, the way it affects me
is, it makes it hard for me to get along people.
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:When going to conferences, it's hard for me to have the conversation.
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:I come off as quirky or, or people's label me as in short, like for me being autistic
means I'm different as simple as that.
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:Okay, Mm-hmm.
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:I think there's um, I guess we need to emphasize something a little bit here, right?
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:Because there are some social cues that you know, you may miss right?
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:but that doesn't diminish your intelligence and I think we need to clarify that because
you know, I guess coming from a technology background and Truthfully it certain
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:professions attract certain personality types.
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:Let's just call it for what it is guys.
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:Okay, so Do you find a?
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:a community in cybersecurity itself that is welcoming of neurodivergent minds and
personality types, or is it still the same struggle, you know, with the community abroad,
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:like broader community?
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:Overall, it's still a struggle because these conditions are still, the NECA stigma is
still there just being different.
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:Because think of it as a factory, everyone's, they expect you to just fall in line, be
like everyone else, but it doesn't work that way.
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:because ideally our difference, everyone is different and our differences should be
celebrated.
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:That's why like in the cyber field, one thing I am proud of, when I noticed a community
didn't exist, I created one.
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:I was part of a called WISIS, Women in Cybersecurity.
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:And the leadership asked me that they don't have a no diversity group.
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:So I volunteered to create it.
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:So I created the groups called the WISIS, No Diversity Affiliate.
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:So that group is basically...
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:targeted to help to advocate for and support neurodiverse women in the tech and cyber
fields.
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:And Try Knowledge is the only group in the world that does that.
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:And there I brought in speakers who are some of them are mothers who have ADHD and who are
just killing it in the tech fields.
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:think that something that is important for women when they see, because normally when a
woman goes to work in a tech or cyber field, think, eh, it's going be so hard.
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:cannot have like a safe family, you cannot find happiness.
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:But when they see women like that, are like, who are champions who are who have these
conditions, who are just killing it in their jobs.
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:And they have the that and they have families.
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:And everything is, everything is good.
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:Like, it empowers when you think you can see that say, hey, I can do that too.
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:my goodness.
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:Well, first of all, let me thank you.
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:for championing for us and especially as women, especially for the empowering factor and
encouraging women to go into tech because to begin with this, it's not an easy industry,
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:but there are not that many women who want to go in tech even though they want to.
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:It's just they see all those obstacles.
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:They see all that.
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:No, maybe I can't.
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:No, maybe I shouldn't.
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:It's not for me.
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:I'm not going to be welcome.
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:But add on that, on top another layer,
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:of being neurodivergent.
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:So thank you, thank you, thank you for championing for us because we need more advocates
like you, Nathan.
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:We need allies, we need individuals, with how the world is right now.
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:As women, we need to come together.
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:As minority, we need to come together.
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:Diversity needs to be celebrated.
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:I have two biracial, biocultural children.
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:Don't you think that this is, you know, we wanna create a world where embracing our
differences.
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:is what I'm rooting for.
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:And it's always been like that.
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:I want to touch upon a point that really caught my attention at the beginning when we
started talking about family.
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:So when did you know you were different?
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:And when did you share that with your family?
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:Or did your family know that?
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:So yeah, my journey is not a pretty one because growing up, I always knew I was different.
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:So I grew up in a time in US where people thought things like
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:vaccines caused autism.
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:that knowledge and medical understanding of autism and all the other conditions was not
that great.
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:So as a result, growing up, I knew I was different.
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:I never got help.
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:Only recently, maybe in the past five years, I finally got a diagnosis.
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:So I'm late diagnosed.
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:However, I had known some friends where they have very supportive parents where they knew
right away that their kids were different and they got them help and they are
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:driving now as adults.
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:So it's important to recognize it early and to get people help.
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:So you'd say about about five years ago, it's it's that you actually, you know, took the
step and say, okay, we're going to go through all of this.
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:Now, how did your family, you know, your immediate family, that up until that point, were
you labeled?
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:Were you misunderstood?
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:What was it like?
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:I was always misunderstood.
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:So my family overall,
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:It's a mixed bag.
390
:They, again, because of the Chinese and Asian culture, they don't recognize all these
conditions, much less mental health.
391
:So of course, they know, I'm very open to them that I have these conditions and I even
advocate for them, do they, so they are informed, but do they accept me?
392
:Not necessarily, but it's like too bad, this is who I am.
393
:Can we call it us Asians sweeping under the rug?
394
:We will acknowledge it, we'll work with you on it, but we'll never admit it, we'll never
talk about it, we'll never coddle you.
395
:Maybe that's another topic for another day kids, because I can tell you, culturally, the
Asian culture is all about the survival of the fittest, so you freaking find a way to be
396
:your fittest you.
397
:And that's it.
398
:It's like, I don't know about you, it's like...
399
:You know, my dad threw me into the pool and said, swim, you know, like, that's just kind
of how it is.
400
:I can't be the only one that got tossed into a pool.
401
:Come on people.
402
:That explains a lot, but what else?
403
:Actually on that note, want, I do need to make a big call to, Vanessa Yee.
404
:One thing that really opened my eyes is she came out with a documentary a few years ago
called Laundromat.
405
:That, because despite all these
406
:Barriers that prevent Asians from addressing or even getting help mental health that
documentary called laundromat by venice II that they opened my eyes like she went into
407
:detail like how Like winter when she went through grief or was into depression.
408
:You don't talk about it like say Like Yeah, they don't get help.
409
:They don't talk about even within their own family.
410
:They don't talk about it.
411
:They don't get help.
412
:It's like
413
:For a long time, thought I was just the only one.
414
:I thought I was just the only messed up Asian with mental health issues.
415
:watching Laundromat, that really opened my eyes that it's not just me.
416
:Asians all over the place have this issue.
417
:I very much recommend Laundromat.
418
:And I very much thank people like Vanessa and others who are very open to say this stuff
is happening and you're not alone.
419
:Oh my God, yes.
420
:That is key right there.
421
:Those two things you just said.
422
:It is happening.
423
:It is there, it exists, it's just, we need to stop thinking of it as a taboo.
424
:You are not alone.
425
:Why then not come together and let's have these conversations that will create nurturing
sanctuaries in order for us to be able to thrive.
426
:And this is my call to people.
427
:This is my call out and say, hey, why are you all not doing the work?
428
:Do the work, we are here for one another.
429
:We thrive as communities.
430
:It's in our DNA as humanity.
431
:I was having this conversation yesterday with, pardon me, shout out chef Lena.
432
:were at a mixer yesterday because she got invited to compete in the truffle masters
truffle here in Houston.
433
:So, know, hail her.
434
:And I was making coffee.
435
:shouldn't have.
436
:Okay.
437
:Sorry.
438
:Sorry.
439
:Lily.
440
:Lily.
441
:Sorry.
442
:And so was having this conversation with
443
:this gentleman there.
444
:And I said, you know, at the core, the basis core of all of us, we thrive in communities.
445
:That is the fiber of our being.
446
:That is how we are.
447
:So why are we, you know, separating or creating separations by way of labels?
448
:No, we can use those labels and say we belong together as well because of our differences
and finding that common ground.
449
:But you know what I digress because I was what my comment was going to be is
450
:You're mentioning how it's been difficult for family acceptance.
451
:let me start telling you as a Latina Latinos we really either you are saying or you were
insane or you either belong on the streets You know and with normal people or you belong
452
:and in a psych ward that is there's no happy medium There is no gray area.
453
:It's either black or white and I remember I'll give an example of mine when I was going
after I had my second daughter
454
:I was experiencing postpartum depression.
455
:I didn't know what was wrong with me because no one told me about it.
456
:No one pulled me to the side and talked to me about it.
457
:My parents didn't have the tools or the awareness to even start.
458
:So when I started sharing feelings, I was very vulnerable of what I was feeling.
459
:They're like, well, have you ever thought about possibly having this?
460
:And I'm like, well, what is that?
461
:I'm not crazy.
462
:Immediately, myself, I was like, but I'm not crazy.
463
:I'm not, you know.
464
:I don't know what's going on with me.
465
:Maybe I'm just tired.
466
:So I opened up to my mom and I said, mom, I'm experiencing this.
467
:I'm experiencing that.
468
:And she's like, don't you don't need pills.
469
:You, you, you're fine.
470
:You're just, you're fine.
471
:Nothing's wrong with you.
472
:And so pushed it to the side or brushed it under the rug.
473
:So it is very important though.
474
:If I had not had the initiative to literally say, I have to save myself.
475
:I have to do this for myself.
476
:I will still be stuck in the, don't know what was wrong with me.
477
:Maybe I was crazy.
478
:Maybe I'm going crazy without having that nurturing community to tell me, no, you are not
crazy.
479
:You are just going through this and this is what you can do in order to help yourself.
480
:And so it's very important.
481
:You are not alone and nothing is wrong with you.
482
:Okay, nothing is wrong with you.
483
:It's just that information.
484
:that needs to be learned and shared.
485
:And what is one way of that you share this information with the community, Nathan?
486
:I know podcast books and so many different things, but.
487
:And also speaking out and engaging community members and back to what you said earlier, I
think the piece, because again, when people, even the nursing movement as a whole, when
488
:they talk about neurodiversity, the assumption is always white men.
489
:That's the main focus.
490
:But a lot of people don't understand like.
491
:cultural aspects, the race factor in particular.
492
:Like example, which was kind of sort of like what you talked about.
493
:One lady of color told me is growing up, her mom would tell me, girl, there ain't nothing
wrong with you.
494
:Just pick up your Bible, go to church and God will heal you.
495
:Like for people, so for people of growing up, the message is that your mom told you this,
this is how it's going to be and you're not going to get help.
496
:Even for white people, for example, I have a friend who's originally from Italy.
497
:She told me like in Italian culture too, they don't talk about this stuff.
498
:They don't even bring it up.
499
:it's so prevalent throughout the world.
500
:And it's sad that people don't get help.
501
:And culturally, the culture itself and the family and the parents, it's sad, but they are
oppressing a person from getting help.
502
:It's really sad.
503
:Yes.
504
:It is.
505
:this is, think, something because this show, yes, we are based in the United States,
right?
506
:We have to acknowledge our affluence, right?
507
:At least we have accessibility to help that we need.
508
:And I think the understanding that each continent, I'm just going say continent, has its
own views about health, mental health in general.
509
:Right and disabilities in general.
510
:So one point that i'm just going to keep shouting out oswin here because I don't know
where the heck she is They are they are shoot.
511
:Sorry.
512
:Sorry also they are which is they said You know this misrepresentation that it is a white
male thing That the first major neurodivergent conference was out in africa It was a
513
:global conference and I had no idea of that.
514
:So nathan you're nodding your head and like saying yeah.
515
:Yeah.
516
:Yeah Can you tell me a little bit more about?
517
:If you were familiar with that you're younger than than these other individuals so Can we
talk more about that do you see I haven't not heard about the conference but I do I do
518
:know that the argument is university advocates all over the world and they're slowly
making in roles that you mean in places that are For words or I say hostile if for being
519
:different like India the Middle East and Africa so
520
:I'm very happy to see people from all over the world slowly making in-worlds.
521
:Mm-hmm.
522
:Mm-hmm.
523
:No, absolutely.
524
:You know, and because again, I go back to that point of community.
525
:If we don't rally for one another, we really are not going to make any monumental
progress.
526
:And for me, advocacy is in my being, right?
527
:It runs in my blood and advocating for different things, just championing for one another.
528
:Right.
529
:But it is not easy.
530
:Advocacy is not an easy road and it requires courage and conviction.
531
:It requires facing, you know, giants and the enemy, you should say.
532
:you know, I wouldn't say it is that bad, bad or evil.
533
:But what continues inspiring you, Nathan, to continue being one of our champions, you
know, championing and going forward with this movement just because it is important.
534
:We have to.
535
:We have to this conversation.
536
:So high level, I never got any help growing up.
537
:I think for a long time that depressed me and I just felt a lot of shame and felt like
poor me.
538
:I think one day I just looked around and realized that despite everything, like I'm okay.
539
:I made a lot of progress, but there are lots and lots and lots of people out there who do
need help.
540
:In fact, despite all the covered socks I've done, like say the UN, CES, et cetera,
541
:The most impactful talks I've done is for when the audience is like a group of autistic
students.
542
:I did that few years ago.
543
:That is the most impactful talks I've given because I told them straight, like, look at
me, I have autism.
544
:I'm okay.
545
:I succeeded.
546
:My big message to those students who have autism is they will succeed.
547
:I have faith in you.
548
:I believe in you.
549
:Like growing up, I wish someone told me that.
550
:I never got that from anybody.
551
:Yeah, yeah, no.
552
:And one of the reframings that I do with my daughter, just to give you an example, since
we're talking about kids in school, is she's gifted.
553
:She is gifted.
554
:The way she looks at life in a certain concept or the way she processes things, I don't do
that sometimes.
555
:I don't see it.
556
:But however she executes, however she gets to the end goal, and I'm in awe.
557
:I say it is a gift, it is not a hindrance, it is not, you know, it's nothing that will
hold you back except yourself.
558
:You are the only person that will hold you back and your thoughts.
559
:But if you refrain those and you are a gifted student, she is luckily, you she's in a
Vanguard program here in Houston.
560
:But as we start putting in those, you know, seeds of positivity in them now,
561
:so that later on in life and as adults, they don't struggle to fit in.
562
:And I'm not talking about fitting in just to be popular, with normal, with what normal
human beings life is like, which nowadays is chaos, right?
563
:But that's a topic for another day.
564
:But now we talk about the culture, right?
565
:We talk about the cultural aspect, we talk about the personal aspect.
566
:And then now we move.
567
:And one of the wonderful things that I love about you is how you empower women and how you
really focus on us.
568
:That was definitely one of those things that really vibed with me.
569
:And I was like, my God, I must find out more about you.
570
:You support women a lot.
571
:You support us and understand our struggles as with being mothers and trying to balance it
all.
572
:So please tell us a little bit more about that.
573
:Sure.
574
:So I volunteered at Gensburg
575
:because it's just a wish list.
576
:So women's cybersecurity, they are the largest women's cyber nonprofit in the world.
577
:real quick, going back to what you said about motherhood, when my podcast called NeuroSit,
I had a great, amazing guest.
578
:Her name was Tiffany Jamison.
579
:I think she's based out of California.
580
:She's one of the huge powerhouses in the neurodiversity movement.
581
:One of the biggest things she said is, for a lot of parents, one of the first things they
realized that they were no diversion.
582
:is their kids, their kids are special, they're different.
583
:So that was one of the first signs that they might be neurodivergent too, because a of
these conditions like this autism, it's in the gene, it's passed on to their kids.
584
:And one of the most powerful things she said is, as a parent, when your child is
different, they do go through a period kind of like mourning that their kid is not gonna
585
:be like everyone else, and they do need to adjust to a new reality.
586
:And some parents will struggle with that.
587
:And that just blew my mind because I didn't think about that.
588
:Morning.
589
:mean, morning is a hard, it's a heavy word.
590
:And then you're talking about telling a child, well, you have to strip yourself of that
old self to embody a new self.
591
:And so that's a difficult topic to really chew.
592
:mean, as a parent for you, I imagine all you want
593
:is your child to live a happy, healthy life, right?
594
:And that if you can help it as much as possible, that they live a life that, and I hate to
say it, bit of conformity, right?
595
:As in they're not gonna be standing out for the wrong reasons, if you wanna call it wrong,
okay?
596
:I'm not saying it's wrong, but what I'm trying to say is, is you want good attention
brought on them, not bad attention brought on, as a negative connotation, not,
597
:I'm not, I'm digging a hole here.
598
:But that being said is this, I think it's fair to say and allow the parents, you're
allowed to have a grieving process.
599
:If you are learning to say, okay, my child is neurodivergent.
600
:It's not a death knell thing.
601
:It's just saying you're just shedding maybe a different perspective and welcoming and
embracing a new one.
602
:And I think there's shame in parents that have to come to terms with the fact that they
maybe they did feel grief.
603
:anger, whatever it might be.
604
:And so thank you for bringing that up, Nathan, because, you know, as much as we want to
advocate for the, children or, know, for those that are diagnosed, have to advocate for
605
:the parents to allow them to be human, to adjust to their new normal.
606
:So thank you.
607
:never thought of it that way.
608
:like, hell, mean, me, is there a, and again, I'm sorry, Nathan, I'm sorry, my friends in
the neurodivergent community, is there a good community for the parents?
609
:Like to talk to each other and say like, I'm having a hard time with this and admitting
those types of vulnerabilities.
610
:I can't think of any right now, but I do believe there are, because you're right, parents
struggle.
611
:And so back to women, think the other piece to it is what you talked about earlier, it's
similar, like tech and cyber and women, the percentage of women in the tech and cyber
612
:field is roughly 25 to 30%.
613
:It's similar to the neurodivergent field, the percentage of women
614
:actually diagnosed is also very low, it's like 20, 30%.
615
:But consider that according to a UK study, they estimated that up to 50 % of tech
workforce is neurodivergent, but yet many of us hide.
616
:Why?
617
:Because of the negative stigma.
618
:When you go to the office say, hey, everyone, I'm different, it's like wearing a sign that
says, I'm different, hurt me.
619
:It's sad, but that's the reality.
620
:teasing, the bullying, or just being treated differently.
621
:Like one lady shared like how it all started.
622
:It's so she came out and worked back, she has like autism.
623
:It started slowly, you know, being told that she's too loud or she's not falling in line
and she's not doing her job correctly.
624
:And slowly but surely they terminated her.
625
:It's sad, but this is the reality.
626
:People as a whole, they just don't like.
627
:being the only people who different.
628
:That's why somebody talks that you like to use the analogy of the X-Men.
629
:Like I grew up watching the X-Men TV series and the comics.
630
:Like when you look at people like that, they're extraordinary, they're different, they're
saving the world, saving life, but people throughout the comics hate them, absolutely hate
631
:them all because they're different and that sigma exists worldwide, pretty much worldwide,
just because you're different.
632
:That's funny should mention and I apologize.
633
:know you're about to say something, but here's the other thing to you that just popped up
in my head is being different.
634
:I think one of the reasons why I think women specifically are not as acknowledged with the
diagnosis is because I'm going to call it out.
635
:People's do women have the ability to mask their autism better than a male?
636
:And I'm wondering, is that societal or is that cultural?
637
:Is that because our brain chemistry, because we do have progesterone and estrogen that
maybe can help us a little bit.
638
:Nathan, have you heard anything of that nature of women masking their autism better?
639
:That I don't have any, I can't think of it off the top of my head, but high level.
640
:Masking is exhausting.
641
:High level.
642
:Think of it as like trying to using the IC term.
643
:Think of it as trying to run a server in virtual, as a virtual machine on the laptop where
they say,
644
:for a four gigabytes of round, it's going to crash a lot faster.
645
:Yeah.
646
:that's, that's you got bold masking, but that's why I highlight masking, pretending to be
someone else and trying to fit in.
647
:It's exhausting.
648
:And eventually you crash out some women I talked to who are like amazing friends and
powerhouse at the university moon.
649
:They take off the mask.
650
:Hey, I'm going to be myself.
651
:I'm going to kick ass at this, at my job.
652
:And you know what?
653
:They thrive.
654
:They very much thrive.
655
:That's why the end of the day.
656
:Ideally, we should be safe to be psychologically safe to unmask and be ourselves.
657
:my God.
658
:You know that that right there just makes me so proud because we go through that silent
battle for so long because we wear those masks and that emotional labor that comes
659
:associated with the masking is exhausting.
660
:It depletes.
661
:It drains.
662
:It just sucks the life out of us.
663
:And so what's left are the remnants of that person that is right.
664
:That was because society just doesn't nurture us.
665
:doesn't put, you know, it just withdraws, withdraws.
666
:It doesn't deposit back to us because we don't have the safety sanctuaries at all.
667
:So what ends up saying, well, people end up saying, well, she's just crazy or she's
bipolar.
668
:It's automatic labels, labels.
669
:labels, labels, when are we going to stop and actually start being responsible for saying,
how am I contributing to this situation?
670
:What am I doing and not being able to create a nurturing environment for this individual
to thrive?
671
:We as humanity have that responsibility, guys.
672
:And that's why everywhere I go, I try to make sure that people feel welcomed because we
all are different, but we have to celebrate those differences, right?
673
:Absolutely.
674
:yeah, and back to your other question.
675
:So give me an example.
676
:When a friend, she was a guest at one event, she explained how before when she goes to
work, she tried to fit in, dressed like a stereotype of a normal, like the everyday woman
677
:at work that can try to wear a dress or business suit.
678
:Just look normal.
679
:It's similar to masking.
680
:She got exhausted, like trying to fit in like that.
681
:Then one day she explained how she said like, never mind that.
682
:She started coming to work.
683
:like wearing jeans and combat boots and looking more like herself, she's comfortable and
she can work.
684
:And she felt, me how doing that was so liberating for her and she was able to work more
efficiently.
685
:again, she's free to be herself.
686
:Like that was extremely powerful to myself and a lot of the women in the crowd.
687
:Yes.
688
:I mean, like again, for me, that is very liberating.
689
:think you just said a key word there because
690
:If we're trapped in being the mask of someone else, then why are, you know, we're
continuing to dishonor who at the core being we are.
691
:And I know spiritual speaking, that's not what we came to this world to do.
692
:We are here in order to be able to honor who we are true to ourselves.
693
:And if you're telling me that I cannot be my authentic self because it doesn't fit
somebody else's mobile, I got news for you.
694
:I'm not fitting in that mold.
695
:So you're going to get it.
696
:Taste of Raquel all my life.
697
:I've been hearing you're too loud.
698
:You're too vivacious.
699
:You're too this you're too that well, you know what I'm entertaining and I make people
smile.
700
:So how about that?
701
:How about making yourself smile man who cares what people think you know what cuz you
can't control what people think right you can only can control how you respond to things
702
:and You know, by the way everyone I am like trying so feverishly hard to keep track of
everyone's amazing comments for those that wrote big one big
703
:Be really thoughtful and and Nathan you may want to check it out later and review it I
can't share it unless you want me to cover Nathan's handsome face So I'm not sharing your
704
:amazing comments, but I do want to make an acknowledge that there's a really great input
being shared here and We appreciate you and thank you very much everyone.
705
:I just I just can't you know, yeah, unless you want me to cover your face Nathan, but
don't know You're too handsome.
706
:I'm sorry.
707
:I'm just gonna be I'm gonna call it out
708
:And the beautiful thing of the community and thank you everyone who was tuned in and
actually chiming into the conversation because this belongs to all of us.
709
:These conversations are supposed to be nurtured.
710
:And I encourage you all to reach out to Nathan, to reach out to a community that embraces
neurodiversity, that embraces communities and that are different because at the end of the
711
:day, it's about the survival and it's about the thriving.
712
:How do we start coming together as a community to create spaces for parents to have these
conversations so they don't feel the shame and the guilt and, did I do something wrong?
713
:Because that's what happened to me.
714
:As a mom, I was ashamed that I did something wrong in the womb for my child, that it
caused my child to come out that way.
715
:And when I tell you the, first of all, the audacity, I was smart enough to say, that's not
how it works.
716
:But just the shame and the guilt that knowing that these other individuals are still
walking out there around the world thinking that it was my fault that my daughter has
717
:ADHD.
718
:Honey, they think that now there's people who think that now and that is again, advocacy,
education, right?
719
:Empathy is going to help further along that cause and along that path.
720
:Nathan, let me ask you in this and in your advocacy work, are you getting pushback?
721
:Are you getting pushback from folks that are like meh?
722
:I think it's made up because there are some people out there that think it's a, again,
going back to what Travis was saying, like, suck it up, mask it.
723
:You can overcome it.
724
:So what kind of resistance are you seeing if any these days?
725
:See, I love, I do.
726
:Or some people did tell me things like I'm, I'm, I look normal.
727
:I can't have autism or we're just, yeah, like you said, like you said, suck it up or
728
:Another way I get told sometimes to get with a program or...
729
:Oh my God!
730
:Or even worse of all, like, shut up, just do what you're told.
731
:I get told that sometimes.
732
:But back to what you said earlier, I think despite all these challenges, I think one of
the first and most important steps for a lot of people is acceptance.
733
:Like growing up, I didn't want to be different.
734
:I wanted to fit in.
735
:There's that societal expedition like you got to fit in in order to be accepted.
736
:But whether for my journey personally to share, that was my very first step.
737
:Because if you cannot accept yourself for who you are and having these being no diversion,
it's harder to get people to accept you.
738
:But that's the first step, my opinion, accept yourself.
739
:I love that because so many of us do not get to hear the, hey, in spite of it all, I'm
proud of you.
740
:I, you know, I love you.
741
:It doesn't matter.
742
:love you.
743
:and, know, we don't get to hear those words too often.
744
:So being able to look in that mirror and doing that mirror exercise, it may be very, very
odd at the beginning, but being able to tell yourself, Hey, I love you.
745
:And I'm proud of you.
746
:It is, it brings down so many walls and you get to walk out into that world empowered.
747
:I know it's so difficult for so many because it is scary, but vulnerability is a
748
:So, and I love that you specifically say that.
749
:And, you know, one of the things, the other thoughts that I had was it is a lonely road,
but we have the ability to say, I don't want to walk this road alone.
750
:I don't want to, you know, God forbid, you know, it be my demise.
751
:We are here for one another.
752
:We are not alone.
753
:And I keep saying this.
754
:You are not alone.
755
:Reach out to someone.
756
:We are here.
757
:We're advocates.
758
:This is why we get up and do what we do every single day.
759
:This is why Nathan, you get up and you're like, okay, let's go empower.
760
:Let's go create a community.
761
:Let's go talk on this podcast.
762
:You have your own podcast too.
763
:And I hear you're starting a second one soon.
764
:So congratulations on that.
765
:But this is what drives us.
766
:know, anything else you would like to add to that?
767
:And real quick, I see a lot of comments about family.
768
:have difficulties down the end.
769
:After accepted, think another thing why you learn is very powerful is if there's certain
family members or even friends or even parents, if they don't accept you, if they don't
770
:like what you're doing, well, you can just create a boundary.
771
:Create a boundary and if they're going to be full of hate and say, they don't like what
you do, create a boundary and say, if you don't accept me, you don't have to be around me
772
:anymore.
773
:I can be myself.
774
:I'm sorry if you don't.
775
:Well, I think that boundary is so critical right because that that helps you keep yourself
love contained and and it doesn't go out that energy that sucking of the energy goes away,
776
:know for me you want to keep that to yourself as much as you possibly can and give your
energy for those that will accept you we talked about tribes all day long we talked about
777
:authentic connections all day long and I am so thrilled that you guys met in real life and
that you guys made a connection because
778
:we don't talk about neurodiversity in business enough.
779
:And this is why in LinkedIn, particularly, yeah, we're streaming on YouTube and all that
good stuff.
780
:But ultimately this message is really for LinkedIn audience, which is we're working with
people that are diverse, whether it's culturally, mentally, physically, whatever, right?
781
:We have to acknowledge that.
782
:Look, we're not saying make accommodations and change everything and walk in the room with
your left foot all the time.
783
:please all our OCD friends.
784
:We're not saying any of that.
785
:It's just simply acknowledgement.
786
:That's it.
787
:Acknowledge it.
788
:We don't need you to be holding our hands and heaven knows we don't need pity.
789
:Like none of that.
790
:Like we like advocacy.
791
:We don't need pity.
792
:Right?
793
:So that's the other thing that I think I love that you're here, Nathan, and pushing this
out because some people, if you're not exposed, just don't know how to behave.
794
:And that's okay.
795
:Ask the question.
796
:Okay, Nathan, let me ask you, do you like it when people ask you questions to learn more?
797
:Absolutely.
798
:Because for me, I love to help people.
799
:In fact, you talked about the workplace.
800
:I just released some information on LinkedIn about a day or so ago about like, what do you
do when you come out as no divergent in the workplace and they start bullying you and they
801
:want to fire you.
802
:So I posted some resources for some people to, for information for people to consider.
803
:like how to protect yourself and how to take action when you're wrongly fired from your
job.
804
:Because sadly, people don't talk about it much, but it happens.
805
:Being different, being bullied, being fired for being different, it happens.
806
:You know, we've gone and I'm looking at time and I'm respecting everyone's time.
807
:There are so many wonderful comments in the conversations going on that I may consider
doing a second part of this.
808
:We have to.
809
:think so.
810
:Just because it's so huge.
811
:Mental health and mental wellness.
812
:These are topics that they're not just trending, y'all.
813
:I mean, it's reality.
814
:This is what we live every single day.
815
:And people need to start thinking we cannot have shame.
816
:This is not taboo.
817
:Let's encourage and nurture these conversations.
818
:And I keep saying that.
819
:managing mental health in a high stress career can be tough.
820
:That is one thing.
821
:And so you have to be very intentional on how to have those boundaries and protect
yourself.
822
:So for self care, for example, I've thought I've gone into a lot of meditation and
exploring into many of these.
823
:So what are some of the self care things that you do for yourself to protect you?
824
:So meditation is a good one.
825
:And also, like yesterday, I
826
:finally got out of my funk, started hitting the gym again.
827
:And I'm not sure, I know we were almost out of time, but I do feel the need to bring up
that for no diversity, one underlying issue which affects many people is complex PTSD, the
828
:trauma.
829
:And again, being Asian, a lot of people don't talk about it.
830
:That's why I was so amazed when I finally found some books from Asian women who actually
talked about it the books.
831
:So two books I would recommend are What My Bones Know by Stephanie Phu and Where I Belong
by Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon where they talk, they go into depth about complex PTSD,
832
:trauma, growing up in a broken home, going through abuse, and how to heal.
833
:I think that can help many people who are struggling with mental health issues.
834
:my goodness.
835
:let's let's I'm gonna put those books.
836
:I'm gonna list them or cherry them.
837
:Look at CFP proactive.
838
:Yes, tried.
839
:Yes.
840
:So what my bones know by Stephanie who Yes, I know you had mentioned that in our
conversation as well.
841
:Still diving to waiting to get dive into that.
842
:Because we need as much resource as we can.
843
:in order for us to not only understand ourselves as individuals and what else can we do in
order to be able to thrive in this world, but not and have resources within the community.
844
:So thank you so much for sharing that, Nathan.
845
:I think that's very important.
846
:But I talked about the meditation and I you said that.
847
:What would be a parting message or golden nugget that you can tell someone who is
848
:Possibly and you're a little scared of saying hey, I acknowledge that I may be a little
different, but I'm scared I don't know how to talk to someone about it.
849
:What is a word or a phrase that you?
850
:Give them to feel empowered to do so So high level like for my journey once I started
suspecting that I'm new diversion I started researching just start reading books start
851
:going on the internet and watching like there's tons of deals on YouTube from people who
gone through similar stuff
852
:And let's see, high level, to local events.
853
:There's, for example, various, nonprofits, AA and E and various diversity, based,
nonprofits in pretty much every state.
854
:And I think my last parting message to everyone is something I heard from the show called,
Ms.
855
:Marvel on Disney, where someone said, how can I be normal?
856
:And her response is.
857
:There is no normal, there's just us and what we do.
858
:Like that is very powerful.
859
:Because there is no normal.
860
:Every single person on this planet is different.
861
:Yes, yes.
862
:my gosh.
863
:You just like literally, okay, I'm not gonna cry.
864
:I'm not gonna cry.
865
:I am not gonna cry.
866
:my gosh.
867
:Is there an episode you don't cry?
868
:I mean, honestly, think audience literally, can we go back in time?
869
:I don't think there's an episode where you don't cry, but go ahead, go ahead.
870
:Because it's heartfelt.
871
:Nathan, you're speaking to me.
872
:You're speaking to everything that I've, that young girl, adolescent that went through
life, doing life thinking something was wrong with her because she was different, that she
873
:was considered the black sheep of the family because she dared to do things in a different
manner and thinking that it was disobedience when in reality it was just her living her
874
:full out human life and human experience.
875
:Yeah, some human experiences are not for everyone y'all.
876
:Let me tell you that right now.
877
:But thank you for just giving us that validation that yes, you are not alone and there's
really nothing wrong with you and go out there and live a fruitful life that honors you.
878
:Those are so empowering.
879
:If somebody had pulled me at 15 years old and told me that, we just said, bro, I would
have done it.
880
:I would have lived for me.
881
:as opposed to for what society dictated and what the norm said, what the mold said that I
needed to mold into.
882
:whoo, this is a lot.
883
:Yeah, we're definitely gonna have a second one.
884
:I am not kidding you.
885
:Nathan, you are phenomenal.
886
:Thank you again for the work that you are doing for us, for humanity, and for the legacy
that you're leaving.
887
:And I am so proud of you.
888
:You should be so proud of you.
889
:Thank you.
890
:and all the difference that you're making in the world.
891
:And I know that many of the professionals who are on this call as well and on this live
stream and who know you, know you touch so many lives.
892
:So we will have you back again.
893
:But other than that, guys, thank you.
894
:And then we do want to highlight another amazing brand, another amazing individual who's
doing so many wonderful things in the caregiving space and to comfort us.
895
:So go ahead, my dog.
896
:Excellent.
897
:And so thanks everyone.
898
:And here we go.
899
:Falling asleep with your head in the wrong position is a pain in the neck.
900
:You deserve Towsie Comfort for head, neck and back support.
901
:Go to TowsieBrands.com and get your comfort on.
902
:Thank you for joining.
903
:If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe and follow us for the next episode.
